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CHEERLEADER FOR INSANITY
Tokion July 2009
Article + Full unedited interview with Mr. Tony Ward and Daniel
Louis Rivas
by
Takeaki Yamazaki
Permission: To give ones self the consent and
allowance to freely explore the infinite array of
experience that life offers. Artists Tony Ward and
Daniel Louis Rivas aim to scream this message
directly at the audience with their new collection
of paintings. Embarking on a collaborative
journey of creativity together, they’re making it a
point to explore the relationship of two artists,
one medium, the process of creation through
autodidactic means, and inspiring everyone
they come across along the way, somehow, in some
form.
Having found success in the worlds of modeling and
acting, both Tony and Daniel are discovering how
their past experiences have shaped the creative
minds they are today. Exploring the notions
permission, identity, relationships, and the magical
act of transforming energy from our emotional
spectrum into creativity, they evoke a unique world
that surfaces from each canvas. This most recent
endeavor of theirs, collaborative painting, sends
them preparing for an upcoming European tour.
Take
This sort of collaborative
painting is relatively unheard of in the art world.
The process in each individual, which meets on a
canvas
together, creates an interesting situation.
Tony Ward
I love
our art, I love what we do, I love the energy we
have. It’s awkward, it’s uncomfortable; we’re
painting over each other’s shit [work], mostly me.
And not everyone is going love what we do, there are
always going to be people who hate you, without
reason, without even knowing you, they’ll hate what
you represent, hate what you do and what you stand
for. And then there are people who will love you and
love what you do. And to me, they’re all the same. I
don’t care, It doesn’t matter what anyone has to say
about what we do. Bottom line, I’m vomiting on a
canvas, I’m getting rid of my garbage, and I’m
processing. That is the process! There’s my process,
maybe it sucks for you, but there it is.
Daniel Louis Rivas
And we have fun. We
have a good time doing it; we have a good time
collaborating. This is just another, very important,
avenue that we decided to journey and travel down
together. We’ve developed a
friendship and it feels really natural. A lot of
things in this world feel unnatural, and you know
it, you know it in your heart. You know when
something is off.
Take
How did it feel when
you two first got together? How did you first get
together and decide to collaboratively paint?
Tony Ward
I got a part in this movie and we hadn’t seen each
other in about 5 years and I asked him if he knew an
acting coach to help me to prepare for this film.
His acting coach lives downstairs, so we hung out
more often and one day he called me about this show
for Ghetto
Gloss [a gallery in LA].
Daniel Louis Rivas
It all started in here [in
this room]. Just brainstorming for hours. I’d always
been painting, I just called Tony and said lets have
a show. It was getting close to Xmas, why not? I
knew Tony had done some photography so I thought I’d
show my paintings and he’d just show his
photography. But then from that, it became this…
Tony Ward
It was his suggestion. He said, “let’s do some
paintings!” I had my hesitations about it…
Daniel Louis Rivas
It all just led
to this, it evolved quickly too. From the early
paintings to what’s happening right now. And it’s
amazing. It’s magic because it really hasn’t been
that long.
Take
You both start on this
entirely different path and suddenly end up here.
Tony Ward
I think its genius. It’s a ploy of sorts and
it’s quite weird. I don’t really like Andy Warhol, I
mean I respect the entity and the energy of that
period in time, to launch pop art, it’s impressive,
its pretty amazing. I’m not saying that we’re doing
that, but this is pure energy. His energy and my
energy, combined together. Saying we’re artists and
we’re working on the same canvas. Here we are.
Take
That says a lot about
your process, which is not just a solitary venture
in each of you separately, but rather the meeting of
both, the collaboration, which results in some
interesting art. Can you elaborate on this unique
process?
Daniel Louis Rivas
It’s inspired thought.
Often we second-guess ourselves. When it comes to
acting and painting I try to be there, in that
moment, and not think too much. In the rest of
my life, I’ll see a pretty girl and hesitate and
Tony will tell me to be more like I am when I’m
creating art with life. It’s what I’m trying to
figure out…
Tony Ward
Yeah, and the whole thing is that there’s no
figuring it out. You just have to do it. I
view it in a more primitive way. I’ll look at it [a
painting] and read it, tune into the feeling of
whatever is going on and then I see it. Sometimes
I’ll start painting around it and it’s so awkward.
Like a sculpture, you just keep chipping away
because you know the masterpiece is somewhere inside
of it, so you keep chipping away. I’ll look at
something, and every time I feel like I can’t touch
it. I question, where do I go? What do I do? And
then this guy, he just attacks it, he’ll put a face
right in the middle of the canvas, BAM!
Take
There are bound to be people who will have a
certain perspective of you two for not having
certain credentials or training from institutions.
On your website, you speak of the autodidactic
ability and process you both explore. Knowing that
your art comes from a autodidactic process that
you’re capable of discovering, does this empower you
and your art?
Tony Ward
It’s a bit crazy, I know it’s powerful because I
believe in what’s going on inside of me. I believe
we all have it, we’re all artists in some way.
Whatever we’re working on, I believe that that is
our art. We’re like little bombs, compressed. And if
you allow yourself to open up and to be open to a
number of things, then you don’t confine yourself to
one specific thing, one specific way of thinking. I
think...I think I think a lot. [laughs]
Take
Knowing you have this
autodidactic capability gives you the ability to
approach creativity from a different vector than
someone who is simply classically trained.
Creativity has always come from the process of
problem solving. You’d never confront these problems
and
experiences without having chosen these particular
paths.
Daniel Louis Rivas
All that’s happened in
our lives has brought us here, to this moment. The
art world politics don’t really bother me. Those
people who may question our process, about it not
being classically trained. Well, were the cavemen?
Artists I love like Francis Bacon and Basquiat and
the idea of Schnabel and Diego Rivera. I just have a
healthy belief in what we’re doing, in our art, in
what we’re creating. The politics don’t really
bother me.
Tony Ward
I look at his [Danny’s] stuff and might see and
say that it may be a bit like Basquiat, but the more
I get to know him, the more I see that its so purely
him, it’s ridiculous. I love Picasso, I’d read about
people like Tulus Lautrec, Egon Schiele, and Bacon,
I was really moved by these kinds of artists. They
were insane. They lived this crazy tortured life
where they just had to do it [create art]! Now I
don’t like looking at inspiration at all, I don’t
like looking at other artist’s works. I want it to
come from visions from inside my own mind. But
whatever moves you. Whatever you gotta do, you gotta
do it. What strikes you. I’ll never look at one
thing and say this is me, this is what I do, this is
how I do it. My interests fall so vastly wide that
that exploration feels more free to me. That’s the
way I want to go about and do it. I’m also such an
anal perfectionist that that can also get in the way
of me, if I start thinking too much. And it’s like
what you said about the autodidacticism, that
process of how to do things, it can be such an
agonizing process, [at one point] it was hurting my
stomach trying figuring things out. Like how to
paint this fur for this painting [a painting of a
Civet with a mask titled, “Civet doesn’t know the
masquerade is over].
Take
Is there any real
identity connected to the paintings?
Daniel Louis Rivas
There is, it’s
that imprint from our parents, from our DNA. My dad
is a singer and an artist, I just started forming a
relationship with him, I hadn’t seen him in about 20
years but there’s something I’m channeling that I
don’t even know that I know. And why I’m attracted
to crosses, and this Aztec imagery. I grew up
Jewish, I had a bar mitzvah. Some of my earliest
memories are of being in churches and being
fascinated by Jesus and often we don’t even know.
It’s backwards its forwards.
Take
I read that you spent
some time as an ‘artist in residence’ at Herman
Brood’s atelier. What did you bring back from that
experience?
Daniel Louis Rivas
I brought back a lot.
It was a privilege to be the only American artist to
be allowed to paint in his studio after he died. I
didn’t know much about him, then I spent more time
in Holland. I had a lot of encounters with his
ghost. It changed my art, just from research and
being in that space and talking to people who knew
him.
Take
Did it change your
technique or your vision? Or have an entirely
different affect on you?
Daniel Louis Rivas
Not really the
technique, more so it changed my vision. A lot of
what we’re talking about is how he actually lived.
He was this freaky guy, he was a drug addict and a
rock n roll guy, and he was out there, walking
around with a parrot on his shoulder, he lived it.
I’m still processing that whole experience, there’s
something I find very kinetic, there’s a deep
connection between me and Herman somehow. Even
though it’s such a different culture and such a
different life, being there, painting at his studio
with his paintings and his bed and his porno
collection. It was wild.
Tony Ward
I don’t know much about Herman’s art work but I
like what I’ve seen. But talking about vision, Danny
showed me this article about Dash Snow and it talked
about his creative process, about his alternative
lifestyle. It’s an odd dichotomy because we don’t
use drugs as part of our process. And I look at
artists and would think you have to suffer or you
gotta be crazy. I went through a lot of my life
thinking I was crazy. My dad, my brother, both a
little off, so I thought I was crazy. I was reading
this book by Osho, ‘Joy,’ and it basically says that
there are certain things that we do, certain
affirmations that we have to STOP. NOW. These such
expressions of
ourselves, we manifest. So I stopped calling myself
crazy, and stopped caring what other people thought
about me, just stopped. And I knew other crazy
people, really crazy people. How this relates to the
art, Van Gogh cut his own ear off; I’m not going to
think such things are going to affect my art. In my
head I think I have to be this weird eccentric
artist and wear my pants backwards, wear only red
hats everyday, or have a fake puppet on my shoulder.
Do I have to be that dude to be taken seriously as
an artist.
Take
Both of you being
actors, I’m sure you’re aware of the mask play that
is a very significant exercise to explore identity
in theater. Having masks in nearly every
painting, what do these masks have to say for you
and about you as artists?
Daniel Louis Rivas
I wear so many
different masks and even I still have the question,
who the fuck are we? I love masks. Aztec masks,
Mayan masks, African masks; and we’re always wearing
masks, all of us.
Tony Ward
[we wear] Masks on masks, layers of masks. We
wear different faces all the time. It’s the facade
we’re giving to the world. Different parts of our
personality come out over that initial facade.
Layers of crud over other layers begin to build up.
In the work, it comes out. Underneath all this, this
is who we are, and it’s really not cute.
Daniel Louis Rivas
I’ve learned a lot from
Tony. No matter what situation he’s in, he’s
himself. It’s tough to be like that in this world.
We’re always here and there. We constantly change
but stay the same. He’s his own greatest work of
art. We both hang out and act like little kids, we
have fun. Sometimes you hang out with friends and
have to put on this mask for this person or that
person. It’s always fun to rediscover the joy and
freedom in creativity.
Tony Ward
I’ve been stone cold sober for going on 5 years now.
More than ever I want to be a freak. I want to be
freer than I’ve ever felt before. And I feel it now.
It’s about fighting against the ideology of who and
what I am. This came from my mother. You have to not
hate and just be free. Just express yourself the way
you have to express yourself without worry of others
opinions. We’re so caught up with eating right,
looking right, smelling right, it’s crippling.
Everything is very PC now. We have facades when it’s
actually really grim today. I don’t want to ignore
that, not with myself, not with my art. I have loved
ones I care about, I want to inspire and go out and
be inspired. I’m a cheerleader for insanity. And I’m
fascinated by kids, they need guidance.
Daniel Louis Rivas
and kids need real hope.
Take
Where would you say this
art comes from to display such an open nakedness?
Are you taking off your masks?
Daniel Louis Rivas
It’s straight
from the heart, for sure. It comes from places we’ve
all been some only some of us have been. I’ve been
through addiction, heartbreak, love, a family
dinner. Acting is someone else’s work, it’s going to
change in the editing room. this is ours. They’re
moments, they’re experience, they’re priceless.
There’s this magical thing that’s happening right
now with our art and our paintings. It’s a mirror to
nature.
Take
It’s sensation. It’s
death, its happiness, its love, its disparity, all
at the exact same moment.
Tony Ward
You hear artists talk about this. We do a painting.
All the joy, the bliss and fucking frustration, all
that effort, is done once you put the brush down.
Then it’s freedom, it’s there. I did it. Maybe it’ll
burn but the joy of it is that it’s there. As an
artist, I hope that this piece of art moves someone
so much that they want it on their wall.
Daniel Louis Rivas
I believe in
magic
Take
What would you say magic
is to you?
Daniel Louis Rivas
Magic is a chain of
accidents and coincidences that become something
tangible. We get together and create magic.
Tony
Ward
That book, ‘Many lives, many masters,’ says
something like, ‘everything is a message.’ Birds in
the sky, bombs falling, people dying. Everything is
a message, a mirror, to show us ourselves. When I
was painting this baby it got real heavy, I started
to cry. I started thinking of the real child in this
picture I was looking at, the guts hanging out of
its side, the skull flayed open. When I hear about
people murder and unconsciously harming others, it’s
a mirror. I know the pain. I relate to the anger, I
get them, I relate to them. I can be judgmental at
times, it’s an ugly trait I’ve been fucked by
society and people. But there’s also this immense
magical universe that conspires to make things
happen. I believe in energy, I believe in the
universe. It’s a candy store and I get to choose
what I want to dip into. I am free to do what I want
to do. And there’s a direct response from the
universe. I was in Japan; I was walking with my
pregnant wife. There’s this little old lady coming
towards us down this narrow street and I’m in a
rush, I’m frustrated and I step out into the street.
I’m hit by a bus, knocked out of my wife’s hand, and
sent flying 15 feet. I get up and start yelling. But
then I took a second and realized what was really
going on, that it wasn’t the lady or the bus, but
rather it was me. I learned to take that second to
look, to learn to really slow down and pay
attention. We all have to take a step back and look
at life, see it.
Take
Putting yourselves through
such a process riddled with sensations both good and
uncomfortable while pushing the edges, the limits;
how do these movements affect somebody? How do you
intend for them to affect us?
Tony Ward
I want it to give us all permission. If anything, I
want it to show people that if these knuckleheads
[us] could do it, so can you. Good luck too. If
anything, be a doer, have a goal everyday and work
towards those goals.
Daniel Louis Rivas
…And being unique. A
lot of people don’t have their own voice, and we’re
these two guys with our own voice, collaborating and
making
this unique voice.
Tony Ward
Especially kids these days. We have our family,
our town, our society, and kids are being pounded
with information these days. Their brains are like
little networks, I can’t imagine how they think. And
this permission is educating. We’re all here to
learn, forever. And I can split off and take
whatever idea I have and create. It’s a big lesson
and a good lesson, to share yourself 100%, let that
inspire other people, be excited that its inspiring
other people and don’t be afraid that people aren’t
going to like you.
Take
To simply let go.
Tony Ward
Yes. The key is permission. I’m a free human
being, and if I’m not free, I’m living like this.
Its so simple, but we don’t know that, we don’t know
that it’s that easy to simply let go of ourselves. I
did the Belvedere vodka photo shoot with Terry
[Richardson] and he’s like, get naked. I’m in a
restaurant and next thing I’m naked in this
restaurant pouring vodka on me. And my mind is
saying yeah its fun, but is my dick small? We’re
born naked, its how we are. It’s unnatural to be
worrying about my length. But when you just do it,
it’s in front of everyone. It’s right there, it’s
permission. Next thing you know there’s 10 people
naked too. 23 years down the line of time, the
unborn audience: What understanding would you hope
for them to gain from your creations?
Daniel Louis Rivas
That love slays the
darkness.
Tony Ward
I like that. It’s true. The essence, when it’s
boiled down, life is about teaching and learning.
When someone looks at this in 23 years, someone
might look at these and wonder if there’s anything
political or social going on. But it’s in the
permission you give yourself to be free, to create.
You look at the artwork and say, I can do this. I
think about this entire conversation, you get
permission, you get permission to have a goal, and
then to work towards it with a focus, you can go off
but you can get back on, that’s part of the
permission to be free. But to be on that journey and
keep going.
Take
Your art tells a
story, the story of that journey, of your lives,
here, today. There’s been a few paradigms in art
that are only part
of the story, part of the evolution of what you’re
telling, what you’re creating. What would you say
that story is?
Daniel Louis Rivas
My first thought is
that, I want to walk in the light. I’ve walked in
darkness for so long, a junkie, a liar, a thief. And
now its important for me that I walk in the light,
fuck the darkness, I’ve been there, its in my
closet, I don’t want to live there.
Tony Ward
I’ve talked about it concerning art. It’s an
extension of the idea of not needing other artists
to be inspired. The fact other artists are doing, if
I like the outcome or not doesn’t matter, the fact
they did it is what matters. I believe, what I want
to believe, is that I’m a recorder in my time,
today. If someone asked what my art was about, I
want it to say, ‘this is my experience, here, today,
in 2009.’ I’m not reaching back, other artists had
their time. Artists like Da Vinci, they were
recording what was going on in their lives, then.
It’s transformation. I’m going to listen to metal
and skate and paint until I’m 90. I want to do until
I drop dead. My last expression, hopefully, will be
me taking a picture of myself on my deathbed, the
ultimate self-portrait.
Take
At this point in time
everything is possible. Everything is potential. How
do you go about capturing a moment? Transforming the
potential into the actual?
Daniel Louis Rivas
There are times where I
won’t paint for months and times when I’ll finish 5
[paintings] in a week. Now it’s more disciplined
working together. Capturing is about not thinking
about it, being in it, in the present moment and not
so much in your head.
Tony Ward
That’s when it can get to be annoying. In the action
of doing this, people react quickly. We did this
bunny painting and people suggested we do a series
of them. Suddenly we’re influenced and I’m trying to
tell him how to make these bunny paintings. But what
I try to do is close my eyes and see something.
Confront what’s in front of me and not let my
thoughts get in the way. And I have fuck-all
technique, the process of the autodidacticism is
rough, he’s seen me get frustrated.
Daniel Louis Rivas
But he can
paint shit that I can’t even imagine. It’s awesome!
Take
Through your collaboration
and the shared relationship, creativity has taken
everything to a place where ego has all but
vanished. How would you like to take things to
another level?
Tony Ward
To really start
to deface one another’s work. Because honestly, it’d
really hurt. I’m really detailed and anal and to
think about working on something for a while and
then just watching Danny splatter over it would hurt
for a second, but then it’d settle in and we’d feel
it and it’d be okay. I think that would be an
interesting process to explore. I appreciate what a
lot of artists are doing, I like it, but I’ve never
really seen anything like what we’re doing. It
doesn’t make it better or worse than anyone else’s
[art] but I’m grateful. It makes me feel easier to
know that we’re doing something, to know we’re doing
this.
Daniel Louis Rivas
We like what each
other is doing, we’re pretty good at that, at liking
each other’s stuff. It’s magic. |
